6/18/14---RICHARD LE BEL'S GREAT UNCLE RALPH

On a 1189-1204 contract between Bishop Godfrey de Lucy and Richard le Bel (see 5/13/14 post), we note:

" Richard le Bel, great nephew of Ralph de Fermesham."

1)- WHO WAS GREAT UNCLE RALPH ?

I believe great uncle Ralph was Ralph de Mortemer (1070-1104), who was the (2X) great uncle of Richard le Bel ---this is based on the assumption that Richard le Bel is the son of Hamelin le Bel (1129-1202) who married Isabel de Warenne (1130-1203). DNA17,p.82

William de Warenne's (d 1089) uncle was Roger de Mortemer (990-1074), his son Roger de Mortemer (1032-1086), his son was Ralph de Mortemer (1070-1104). William the Conqueror awarded the captured castle of Mortemer to Mortemer's nephew William de Warenne.

"During the rebellions of 1052-1054, the young William de Warenne proved himself a loyal adherent to the Duke (Wm the Conqueror) and played a significant part in the Battle of Mortemer for which he was rewarded with lands confiscated from his uncle, Roger of Mortemer, including the Castle of Mortimer and most of the surrounding lands." DNA17, p.88

BOXES SHOWING RICHARD LE BEL AND (2X) GREAT UNCLE RALPH DE MORTEMER:

2)- WHERE DID GREAT UNCLE RALPH LIVE ?

Ralph de Mortemer owned land Binsted, Hants and possibly Farnham, Surrey:

A)- 1086 Domesday Book Binsted/Benestede, Hants--(incorrectly listed in Droxford Hundred--there is no Binsted/Benestede in Droxford). Noted Ralph de Mortemer lived in a manor there.

I believe the above says:
"Benestede: Hugh of Port holds 2 hides of this manor from the Bishop in 'BINSTEAD'. Agemund held it from the Bishop; he could not go whither he would. In lordship 2 ploughs; 3 villagers and 3 smallholders with 1 plough. 6 slaves; a mill at 10s; meadow, 7 acres; woodland at 5 pigs; from pasturage 10d. Value before 1066 and now 60s; when acquired 40s. From this head manor Ralph of Mortemer holds by force ½ virgate which was there before 1066, although the monks clear it from tax."---- dna#17, p.136,120

SEE FARNHAM BELOW- I believe Agemund (see above ref Benestede) is Alhmund, Bishop of Winchester--see after Domesday Farnham/Ferneham below--Alhmund granted 60 hides of land in Farnham, 10 hides at Bentley.

B)- 1086 Domesday Book Binsted/Benestede, Hants is correctly listed in Neatham Hundred:

Here is the translation of above:

I believe version A (incorrect Droxford) and version B (Neatham) are the same because:
1)- Version A--Ralph de Mortimer lives in a "head manor", free of tax, held by Hugh of Port.
2)- Version B--Manor is in lordship (Ralph de Mortimer?), free of tax, held by Hugh of Port. (I note Hugh of Port holds over 100 properties, only one pays no tax, that is Binsted, Neatham Hundred.) dna17,p.146

NOTE---Binsted was part of Frensham Manor Beale in Frensham, Surrey. The manor of Frensham Beale was a possession of the le Bel, Bele or Beale family, originally held of the manor of Farnham, and covering a large area from Binsted, Hants, to Elstead and Thursley (VCH Vol II, p.609). It was held by the Beale family until the end of the 16th century. (PD p16)

C)- 1086 Domesday Book Farnham/Ferneham, Surrey-

Translation of above:

I believe Ralph mentioned above is Ralph de Mortemer, who held hundreds of properties at this time.
Frensham Manor Beale was "originally held of the manor of Farnham."

NEW DATA SUGGESTS ALHMUND (BISHOP OF WINCHESTER) GRANTED 60 HIDES IN FARNHAM
(PLUS 10 HIDES IN BENTLEY, HANTS) AS FOLLOWS:
"The manor and liberty of BENTLEY belonged from an early date to the Bishop of Winchester, being dependent on his liberty of Farnham (co. Surr.), to the hundred court of which the tithing-men of Bentley did suit as late at least as the end of the 16th century. (fn. 8) The date at which the bishop obtained possession is uncertain, but it was probably at the end of the 8th century. In 688 Cedwalla, King of the Saxons, granted 60 hides in Farnham of the land of Ceddas, Cisus, and Criswan, of which 10 were in Bentley, to found a monastery. (fn. 9) It is unknown to what monastery reference is made, and none is known to have existed at Farnham, so that the project may have been abandoned. Sixty hides in Farnham, apparently the above-mentioned, were granted in 803–5 by Alhmund, Bishop of Winchester, to Byrhtelm, (fn. 10) apparently only for a term of years or for life, as in 858 Swithun, Bishop of Winchester, granted the same to Ethelbald, King of the West Saxons, for life, with remainder to the bishop and church of St. Peter, Winchester. (fn. 11) In 909 Edward the Elder confirmed a grant by his predecessors of 60 hides of land at Farnham and 10 hides at Bentley to the bishop, (fn. 12) and this grant was further confirmed by King Edgar at the end of the 10th century. (fn. 13) The Bishop of Winchester was holding Bentley as 10 hides in 1086, and of him Osborne de Ou and William were holding 1 hide 1 virgate worth 50s. and l½ hides worth 20s. respectively. (fn. 14) From this date the manor of Bentley followed the same descent as the manor of Farnham until 1648, (fn. 15) when on the abolition of episcopacy it was sold to George Wither the poct and Elizabeth his wife. (fn. 16) At the Restoration the bishop regained possession of his confiscated land, and continued to hold the manor of Bentley until between 1880 and 1885, (fn. 17) when it passed to the Ecclesiastical Commissioners, the present lords of the manor, as the representatives of the bishop."
NOTE Agemund (Alhmund?) held Benestede (version A above)-where Ralph de Mortimer held a manor. I note Binsted borders Bentley and the towns are only 2.5 mi apart. This suggests Ralph de Mortimer was living in Agemund/Alhmund's land grant, part of Farnham/Bentley land granted to the Bishop of Winchester?

D)- MORTIMER, DE LUCY, LE BEL ALL LIVING IN THE SAME SELBORNE, HANTS AREA--
The hundreds of Alton and Selborne were both included in the hundred of Neatham at the time of the Domesday Survey.
Also included in the hundred of Neatham in the Domesday book were Binsted, Bentley, Norton and Selborne.

MORTIMER---
"The second manor of Nor-
ton consisting also of 2 hides
was held of Edward the Con-
fessor as one manor by Elwin. 98
At the time of the survey it
was held by Ralph de Morti-
mer, 99 whose descendant, Roger
de Mortimer, held half a knight's
fee in Norton of the king in chief in 1275,"---DNA#17,p.54

"Norton Farm is almost directly north of Selborne" ---DNA#17,p.55
Domesday survey completed 1086, Ralph de Mortemer (1070-1104)---DNA#17, p.54
Roger Mortimer (1231-1282), in Norton 1275.---DNA#17, p.57,54,53

DE LUCY---
"A church existed at Selborne at the time of Domesday"
"In 1197 Godfrey de Lucy, bishop of Winchester, granted
the church, ' with the assent and at the wish of Abbot
Jordan and the convent,' to Philip de Lucy, saving the
annual pension of three marks to the abbey. "
"There is no evidence to show when the lands in Selborne,
which afterwards became the manor of the prior and
convent of Selborne, were granted to the family of
de Lucy, but a patent of 1229 confirmed these lands
to Stephen de Lucy for his life for an annual rent of
4 yearly." In 1233 the land which Stephen de
Lucy had held was granted by royal charter to
Peter des Roches, bishop of Winchester, for the
foundation of Selborne Priory." ---DNA#17,p.22,21

LE BEL---
We discovered a 1266 Winchester Castle Court case in which Richard le Bel states that he (and others) and their ancestors had lived in Priors Dean, Hants and served King John. They objected to being taxed more. They won the case.
-- NEW DATA 12 APRIL 2014
(Priors Dean is 3.8 miles south of Selborne).

" The following is a list of the Vicars of Basingstoke, instituted to the Vicarage on the presentation of the Prior and Convent of Selborne, with the precise date of their institution if extant : SiMONj named as Vicar in 1244 in the ordination or composition drawn up by Bishop William de Raleigh. * Sir Peteb occurs in 1250 as its Vicar, and Richard le Bel, in 1277 — a member of a well-known family of that name, located at Frensham, in Surrey."---dna 13- p. 25

GODFREY DE LUCY MUST HAVE KNOWN DE WARENNE'S RELATIONSHIP TO MORTEMER (REF CASTLE TRANSFER).
GODFREY WAS A NEIGHBOR OF THE MORTEMER FAMILY (Selborne area).
ASSUMING I AM CORRECT THAT RICHARD LE BEL IS THE SON OF ISABEL DE WARENNE, IT IS EASY TO SEE HOW GODFREY DESCRIBED NEIGHBOR RICHARD LE BEL AS THE GREAT NEPHEW OF NEIGHBOR RALPH DE MORTEMER.